Dear Automotive Enthusiasts,

"CAR_IS_MI" (car-is-mi) 01/28/2016 at 12:24 • Filed to: None

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Please, stop this madness!

It’s no secret that I am in the process of selling my 360 Modena for something more driveable; I just cant figure out quite what. In a recent conversation with some friends, the GT350 and GT350R came up. Now I am a life long Mustang fan, but the new 350 has some concerns for me, but I decided to follow up on the soon arriving GT350 anyways.

So I made my trip to the local dealer, and spoke to a friend of a friend who is a sales person at the dealer. We discussed options and ordering time frames etc. Finally, we got to prices. I had gone online prior to arriving and built out several 350's and 350R’s so I knew roughly what my net MSRP would be around.

As he was looking through his system he noticed that there was a GT350 that was spec’ed out close to what I would want to order, and was not a customer order, due to arrive mid-February. I asked him what the sticker was on it, and he said it was about $57,000 not including the dealer markup.

I asked what they were looking at for markup, to which he responded, of the 7 customer orders they had already taken, they were getting $20,000 over MSRP. I then asked if that was the same for the R. I was then told that for the R they were getting $50,000 over MSRP, and had used their allocations on the R (at least 3 on order, paid for already) for the next several months already, and that if I was interested in the 350, they would likely take an offer at maybe 18 to 19k over MSRP.

REALLY!

This is the problem.

Yes, these cars are rather limited production and something that only enthusiasts will want to get their hands on. But where do you think that extra 20k or 50k goes?

I can tell you. It lines the pockets of whomever owns the dealer. And they go out and buy the same car you just paid 185% of MSRP for at invoice with the extra cash you gave them. In the instance of this dealer, that’s $290,000 in straight profit, never mind the difference you also paid them between invoice and MSRP, on 10 vehicles... as a reference, the national average profit if sold for MSRP is around the $2,500 range (obviously not all vehicles are sold for MSRP, and there are other factors into that which drive profits).

This is no new process either. About a year ago when the new Z06's were hitting lots, the Chevy dealer was taking in $35,000 over MSRP. Before that when the C7 first hit lots they were taking $15,000 over MSRP for your base, non-limited production C7. When the Boss 302 was released they were taking $15,000 for the Boss, and $20,000 for the Laguna Seca.

I could continue but I think you see what I am getting at.

So why do dealers continue this practice? Because we, as consumers allow them to.

With Ford’s more recent announcement of the very limited 250 units globally per year on the new GT, and it’s prior success and following, I was concerned what markups would be on those. Fortunately Ford was smart enough to keep all 400 transactions in house so that dealers don’t have access or control over pricing.

But this is only one of the few times that a manufacturer has stopped price gouging on a new model.

And this trend is only with enthusiast cars. What do you think would happen if dealers asked 20% over MSRP on the new Grand Caravan?

They wouldn’t sell any.

Why? Because no soccer mom or dad is going to spend an extra $5,000 so they can have the dodge symbol up front if they can go buy a Toyota or Honda at MSRP.

So how can we stop this price gouging?

It’s simple, just say no. Yes, I know you really really really want that new (insert awesome new whatever here), but dealers make money, primarily, by turning over inventory. Despite popular belief, allowing hundreds of thousands of dollars in inventory sit around is something no dealer anywhere wants, no matter how much money they have.

And what’s even simpler is the math on your side. Just because you paid 5, 10, 20, or 50,000 over MSRP, that vehicle will only ever be worth, what it is worth. Now if you are a multi-multi-millionaire and have a collection of zero mile Corvettes and this will join them and sit there forever and a day, great. but to 98% of buyers, they will buy them, drive them, use them, and eventually want the next thing. This means the $60,000 car you just spent $100,000 on will only be worth $35,000 in 2 years when they release the next big thing you just have to have.

Now I am no expert but I personally did not get to owning multiple cars, and being able to buy Ferrari’s in cash by literally throwing money out the window. Even if you have landed that high paying dream job that affords you the ability to squander away $60,000 + in disposable income into your bank account every year, it’s just a bad investment decision. So say no. If we all say no, then you too can buy that next thing without first having to grab your ankles and smile while doing so.

PotbellyJoe and 42 others > CAR_IS_MI 01/28/2016 at 12:29

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As with any of these situations, after the first orders are out of the way the prices will settle.

You can have it soon or you can have it at a fair price.

For the price of the car, shop around the country. I’m sure there are plenty of dealers who would sell at MSRP considering that still leaves them around $5-6k in profit. Plus then you get to drive it home.

PS9 > CAR_IS_MI 01/28/2016 at 12:31

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“San Diego Market Adjustment”...everyone involved in that right there can get fucked with a rusty shovel encrusted with bees.

OPPOsaurus WRX > CAR_IS_MI 01/28/2016 at 12:33

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i dont under stand how this is legal.

i dont understand how Ford would allow this

and unfortunately some people have egos as big as their wallets (or wallets as big as their egos, i dont know which way it would go)

CAR_IS_MI > PotbellyJoe and 42 others 01/28/2016 at 12:34

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It’s true, but the point still stands. It only happens as the dealer knows someone will pay it, and all you do is line the pockets of someone more immoral than you (not you personally, buy you the buyer)

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > CAR_IS_MI 01/28/2016 at 12:36

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Supply and demand bitches. It’s called capitalism. Don’t like it, move to the USSR, comrade.

Seriously though, I really couldn't care less about this. Something is worth what the market will pay. If someone can hose an idiot successfully, I'm happy to sit back, laugh with the dealer and buy it used from the idiot in a couple years after they get bored with their new toy.

Vicente Esteve > CAR_IS_MI 01/28/2016 at 12:37

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I am amazed that they can get away with this in the US. In Mexico if a car is marked up a dime of what it says on the magazines or the webpage, the buyer is going to not only complain but downright insult the employees at the dealership regardless of their wealth.

Not the most civilised way of doing business, but we ain’t got mark ups at all.

Baeromez > CAR_IS_MI 01/28/2016 at 12:39

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It all comes down to the wealthy. Now, I am not blaming wealthy people for causing this. Dealerships cause this. But, there are people out there who are willing to pay and the dealerships take advantage of their willingness to gouge the shit out of them. It’s just capitalism at work.

You’re not going to get every multi-millionaire who wants a GT350 to refuse to pay dealer mark up, because to them it’s not a big deal. And that sucks for the rest of us.

CAR_IS_MI > OPPOsaurus WRX 01/28/2016 at 12:39

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Becasue the way the dealer network works is Manufacturer sells vehicle to dealer for invoice $$,$$$ with a Manufacturers Suggested Retail Price. The key word being suggested. If the dealer see fit to sell this for more or less than MSRP, the manufacturer does not really care, as they have already made their money for that vehicle when the dealer bought it from them.

It’s like if you owned a saw mill (manufacturer) and you made 2x4's and sold your 2x4's to both Home Depot and Lowes (dealers) for $1 per, and then Home Depot sold them for $1.50 and Lowes sold them for $1.75, it makes no difference to you as you already got your $1.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > PS9 01/28/2016 at 12:39

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WHOA

agreed

Chariotoflove > CAR_IS_MI 01/28/2016 at 12:40

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Supply & demand and an independent dealer network. Gotta love capitalism.

People will charge what their customers will pay for a commodity. There’s nothing immoral or unfair about that, unless the commodity is a necessity and is being priced out of reach of those who need it. An example would be a housing market in which prices are so high that the people who need to live there must either move out of the area or live in a cardboard box (e.g: Manhattan).

A Mustang 350 R is not one of those necessities; so, fair game.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > OPPOsaurus WRX 01/28/2016 at 12:40

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It’s unfortunately out of Ford’s hands.

Dealers are independent companies and the law required new car sales to go through a dealership. MSRP is just that Manufacturer Suggested Retail Price.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > CAR_IS_MI 01/28/2016 at 12:41

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Man people are idiots for paying these prices.

PotbellyJoe and 42 others > CAR_IS_MI 01/28/2016 at 12:41

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Yeah. When the FJ Cruiser launched there was a bit of a run on them, especially in the blue. We didn’t want to sell ours, we wanted to use it to take orders on incoming until there was enough units on the ground so that people that wanted to actually sit in one, before putting a deposit down, could. So we instructed the sales people that any orders were at MSRP, and anyone who wanted the Blue one in the showroom had to cover a $7,000 premium to have it.

That was a business decision to enable informed orders.

What happened?

Some guy paid the $7k to have it that day.

PS9 > OPPOsaurus WRX 01/28/2016 at 12:43

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There’s almost nothing Ford can do. The Manufacturer Retail Price is just a suggestion because they don’t own the car anymore once it reaches the dealership. Dealerships (or financing agency partners) have the titles, and can charge whatever they want. How is that legal? Hell, given the laws against direct manufacturer sales, gouging like this practically has the government’s blessing.

Tareim - V8 powered > CAR_IS_MI 01/28/2016 at 12:45

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this type of thing makes me glad I’m from the UK from a car buying perspective, there is no dealer mark up and many times you can actually haggle the price down, for example, the GT86 retails around £27k for certain models yet people have been able to haggle down as low as £22k for that particular model

Gone > CAR_IS_MI 01/28/2016 at 12:45

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There are dealers they don’t mark-up, so to circumvent this by shopping nationwide or wait for the markup to disappear by not being an initial customer. Also the 2017 Shelby’s will be built in higher numbers, so that’s another option.

A lot of Hellcats didn’t get marked up thanks to FCA preventing that as much as possible. Ford could do this as well. I think we’ll see $100k markups on the new Ford GT. Because people are stupid lemmings that must be first.

Some people think it’s worth it to be first. People paid adjustments on PT Cruiser’s!!!! I agree it’s a waste of my savings to pay any markup. So I don’t. I don’t need to be first. So while not out of reach for me, I think it’s dumb as hell.

450X_FTW > CAR_IS_MI 01/28/2016 at 12:45

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If only there was a way we could purchase these cars directly from the manufacture, and avoid dealer markups altogether. Sadly such a thing does not exist....

(michigan resident where direct sales are illegal)

Stapleface > CAR_IS_MI 01/28/2016 at 12:45

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I have seen it with other vehicles too, just not as often. If the model is hot or popular, a dealership will do anything they can to make money.

In 1998 when the New VW Beetle came out, I was rather interest in one of them. So, like any consumer, I decided the best way to find out more about it would be to go to the dealer. The conversation went kind of like this:

Me: Hi, I’m interested in the Beetle.

Salesman: Great, here’s the info on them

M: I’d like to test drive one to see if it’s right for me

S: No, you can’t do that without purchasing the vehicle first

M: Well, can I at least sit in one of the three that you have currently on the lot?

S: No. But if you purchase one you can.

M: (For shits and giggles) Okay, how much?

S: Quotes me some price that was about 5k over MSRP, said due to demand.

M: Laughs a hearty laugh and leaves the dealership, wondering what kind of schmuck would agree to that.

PushToStart > CAR_IS_MI 01/28/2016 at 12:46

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If only there was a manufacturer willing to sell directly to customers... That sounds like a GREAT idea!

(I'm still salty about douchebag lobbyists shitting all over tesla)

DrScientist > OPPOsaurus WRX 01/28/2016 at 12:46

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it’s legal because our economy is based on capitalism.

anyone and everyone is allowed to make a dollar however they can.

CAR_IS_MI > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 01/28/2016 at 12:47

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Agree and disagree. This only happens with enthusiast cars as we are really the ones who are, lets call it motivated, to buy that exact vehicle. Let’s take for example the ‘new’ Ford Fusion when it first came out. The demand for that car was massive. Dealers could barely keep them on the lot for a test drive, and you’re talking about a car that they are producing in massive quantities.

So the demand was there, but where were the $5,000 mark ups? Sure, the dealer likely wouldn’t budge off of MSRP, but there was no price gouging.

Sure if you can find a fool to pay it, take it, but the point is, this only plagues the enthusiast crowd. And this falls back to both the consumer and the manufacturer. For example, Ferrari does not allow this to happen to it’s models. If a dealer in the network is discovered to be selling vehicles over MSRP, Ferrari will remove them from the dealer network. Now these dealers have the right to reserve the newest models for existing clients, meaning, you must currently have, or have previously owned a Ferrari, but no one is paying $100,000 over MSRP for a new 488.

DrJohannVegas > DrScientist 01/28/2016 at 12:47

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Mainly by pressuring government to give them cartel pricing power. #thatsnotcapitalism

Aaron M - MasoFiST > CAR_IS_MI 01/28/2016 at 12:48

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It’s simple economics, and people love being first. I don’t see anything wrong with the practice so long as it’s clear that the price includes markup. It ends up being more efficient because the dealer can raise the price until the number of buyers equals the number of cars allocated, eliminating any dodgy queuing practices for reservations. And once the “me first” period is over, the car will go back down to MSRP.

DrJohannVegas > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 01/28/2016 at 12:49

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HAHAHAHAHA. You think this is evidence of an efficient market? Heh. No. The rules regarding sales make the new car market an oligopoly market, so you get sellers charging rents.

Future next gen S2000 owner > PS9 01/28/2016 at 12:49

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Pretty sure that was done as a joke by a dealer on a Hellcat. They had it on the lot and weren’t supposed to sell it so they put that mark up on it to deter people from trying to buy it when they weren’t supposed to sell it. Something like that.

crowmolly > Stapleface 01/28/2016 at 12:50

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Had a similar experience with a C7 Z06.

“We don’t allow test drives.”

CAR_IS_MI > Gone 01/28/2016 at 12:50

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From my understanding, to be considered for GT ownership, you must currently own a GT or have owned a GT, and then you apply direct to Ford NA and if accepted you negotiate with Ford directly. Your vehicle is then delivered to your dealer of choosing, but all the money is done direct with Ford.

Future next gen S2000 owner > CAR_IS_MI 01/28/2016 at 12:51

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Some people have that much money to burn. I’d like to be their friend.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > CAR_IS_MI 01/28/2016 at 12:51

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Sure, you may say “No” to market adjustments, but fools and their money are soon parted.

Steve is equipped with Electronic Fool Injection > CAR_IS_MI 01/28/2016 at 12:52

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It’s sideways but it’s not just enthusiast cars.:

That’s a 2015 Kia Sorento. Seriously. $1500 in dealer markup for market adjustment.

CAR_IS_MI > Baeromez 01/28/2016 at 12:52

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no, but when the dealer is placing 10 - 15 orders for a certain area, what % of those will actually go to people who can honestly say $50k is no big deal? one, maybe two depending on area.

CAR_IS_MI > PotbellyJoe and 42 others 01/28/2016 at 12:55

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Thats a different story, and reasonable acceptable. But this $xx,xxx firm over on ALL is BS.

AM3R shamefully returns > CAR_IS_MI 01/28/2016 at 12:55

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Wait it out, look at the i8 for example. A year ago people were paying $75k+ market adjustment.. Now they sit on dealer lots selling for sticker.

Saracen > CAR_IS_MI 01/28/2016 at 12:56

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Ugh. I would never pay markup for any car. When I wanted a Golf R I held off until I knew I could get one for below MSRP (and ended up getting it below invoice). The MK7 R has been out for a year and the majority of dealers are still getting buyers to pay a markup for them. I just can’t fathom it.

If enthusiasts stop paying markup, dealers will stop charging it.

$20k for a $50k is crazy. It diminishes the value proposition which is one of the appeals of buying a GT350.

CAR_IS_MI > PushToStart 01/28/2016 at 12:57

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You know I still really want a Tesla and love how they do business, but I have driven the P85, and after buying this s63, the comfort and features of the Tesla seem sub par.

PotbellyJoe and 42 others > CAR_IS_MI 01/28/2016 at 12:58

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I completely agree.

Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero > crowmolly 01/28/2016 at 12:58

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And it just goes to show how things change after a few months cause when I bought my explorer from a Chevy dealer they let me test drive a new C7 with the Z51 package no questions asked. This was about a year after the C7 released and right after the z06 came out

CAR_IS_MI > Steve is equipped with Electronic Fool Injection 01/28/2016 at 12:58

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That’s honestly the first time I’ve seen that.

Gone > CAR_IS_MI 01/28/2016 at 12:59

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I wasn’t aware of that, but the GT is outside my financial capacity currently. However, it is very smart of Ford to handle it that way. Don’t want to upset the people with real money...

Bytemite > CAR_IS_MI 01/28/2016 at 12:59

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Holy shit. $150,000 to buy thin air.

This makes me even more glad I got the rally edition Veloster at $19.5k. It is a limited production edition and dealerships only get 1 to put inside their showroom. Yet anyone could have bought it for $5k less than MSRP. Enthusiasts might be more emotionally driven than regular car shoppers but damn, the numbers should really make sense before they buy.

It is definitely supply and demand, the buyers can wait of course, but if the manufacturers were to offer more enthusiast cars, we wouldn’t be having a mad run on the few that are offered.

CAR_IS_MI > Saracen 01/28/2016 at 13:01

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Exactly!!

The 350 is a great deal at $50 - $70 k but not at $80 - $100k.

Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero > CAR_IS_MI 01/28/2016 at 13:01

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If you’re interested in one Ive found 10 on cars.com within 100 miles of chicago that are at or just above mrsp

CAR_IS_MI > Gone 01/28/2016 at 13:03

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Considering they are only producing 250 per year for 4 years globally, that means north American allocation will likely be 100 units per year, maybe 150. Dealers would know this and end up selling a $300k car (assumption, I have no knowledge to actual pricing) for $800k - to even possibly $1m

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > PS9 01/28/2016 at 13:03

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That’s a pretty detailed description...

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > PotbellyJoe and 42 others 01/28/2016 at 13:06

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I remember interacting with that guy, he had more money than brains IIRC.

Baeromez > CAR_IS_MI 01/28/2016 at 13:11

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Well, somebody’s paying markup.

PatBateman > CAR_IS_MI 01/28/2016 at 13:12

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Agree 100%.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > CAR_IS_MI 01/28/2016 at 13:13

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Fair enough, but my point stands. It’s worth what someone will pay. Sure it sucks for enthusiasts, but that is the very fabric our economy is based on.

I can’t blame the dealer for making as much profit as possible, I can blame the moron that paid that much.

But based on your title I suspect we are getting at the same thing from two different angles.

PushToStart > CAR_IS_MI 01/28/2016 at 13:31

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What state are you in? Here in TX Tesla is still being shafted by the dealership lobbyists.

And I think I understand where you're coming from there. For the price point, I think there's definitely better luxury cars out there than the Model S. But at the same time, the price you pay for a Tesla isn't necessarily just for luxury but also the leading edge technology that comes with it.

BaconSandwich is tasty. > Gone 01/28/2016 at 13:33

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I think it’d be fun to own a dealership that always charges a set percentage between the dealer cost and MSRP. For example, if the dealer cost is $18k and the MSRP is $20k, charge $19k.

Treat people right, and they’ll keep coming back to you. Why so many dealerships don’t do this, I’ll never know.

BaconSandwich is tasty. > CAR_IS_MI 01/28/2016 at 13:33

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... and yet people are against letting Tesla sell direct to consumers. Double standard much?

BaconSandwich is tasty. > Steve is equipped with Electronic Fool Injection 01/28/2016 at 13:35

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Crack pipe. I honestly feel sorry for anyone who pays a so called market adjustment on a Kia.

CAR_IS_MI > PushToStart 01/28/2016 at 13:37

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I’m in NV. It’s like if Texas and California had a baby it would be Nevada.

Anyways, yeah the tech in the Tesla is amazing, and it would save me a TON in gas (S63 = 15.5 mpg average + Premium fuel currently around $3 / gal * my 44 mile daily commute...) but massaging seats, rear seats that recline, plus heated and cooled seats all around....

they-will-know-my-velocity > CAR_IS_MI 01/28/2016 at 13:37

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This is not unheard of but is total bullshit. When looking for a car this price, pretty much the whole US is open. I would come up with a list and offer of the price. Tell them you will buy from the first dealer that has the car at the price you want. The can shove all their dealer markups up their collective ass.

Also, the GT350 is not going to be one of those crazy “limited” edition cars. Ford is going to crank production.

CAR_IS_MI > BaconSandwich is tasty. 01/28/2016 at 13:38

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It’s mostly dealer principals that are against Tesla, and people who like bandwagons....

green_man_group > Vicente Esteve 01/28/2016 at 13:40

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Maybe we should lobby Ford to export the GT350 to Mexico then.

Color-Commentary > CAR_IS_MI 01/28/2016 at 13:49

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That’s because Ferrari prices their vehicles so that the factory collects as much money as possible. Ford is leaving money on the table by pricing the GT500 where it is.

I assume that Ford’s logic on this has something to do with the press coverage that they receive for having the “performance bargain” of the year, and maybe it also has something to do with rewarding certain dealers with a guaranteed-high-profit allocation. But I’m just speculating on that.

vondon302 > CAR_IS_MI 01/28/2016 at 13:50

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I almost have up looking for a boss at list most were 5000 markup but I did get one eventually. The gt350 markups are getting crazy though.

AndyG_UK > CAR_IS_MI 01/28/2016 at 13:59

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This is just all kinds of wrong! I’ve never heard of it happening here in the UK, maybe because our dealer model is different and the dealers don’t have the car manufacturers by the balls with stupid laws for “the protection” of the consumers, so maybe the manufacturers can threaten to take away their dealership status if they do it. Plus we can just go to the manufacturers website and order the car directly at RRP (recommended retail price).

Jayhawk Jake > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 01/28/2016 at 13:59

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I don’t disagree that it’s worth more, I do disagree that this money goes to the dealer. The dealer has done nothing to earn that money. The pure profit from a car being so much better than its MSRP should go to the people who made the car, not the middle man.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Jayhawk Jake 01/28/2016 at 14:08

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I do think that should be part of the dealer contract. Something along the lines of “Sell for more than x markup, we get x% of the total markup”.

But as the dealer technically buys the cars and sells them, I'm not sure how that would go down.

PushToStart > CAR_IS_MI 01/28/2016 at 14:10

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That’s probably my favorite description of NV ever lol

And ouch, we’re under $2 for premium where I’m at, haha

But yeah, no doubt the Merc is more luxurious than the Tesla. I imagine if Tesla put all those options in a Model S it would be ludicrously expensive and no one would buy it at the price they’d need to even break even.

PotbellyJoe and 42 others > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 01/28/2016 at 14:28

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I think you interacted with the guy who leased the black cherry one that Kennedy sold. Kennedy used that commision to buy the engagement ring.

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > PotbellyJoe and 42 others 01/28/2016 at 14:31

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Entirely possible.

PotbellyJoe and 42 others > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 01/28/2016 at 14:33

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That guy and his brother came into money by no effort of their own work. They were as sharp as two marshmallows in a microwave.

CAR_IS_MI > PushToStart 01/28/2016 at 14:35

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You say that, but really there are only a few options missing from the Tesla the the Benz has, and I assume on a retail level it could add no more than 15k to the tag of a P85D, and when you consider a similarly equipped new model year S36 4 matic will run you $165k, the Tesla would actually come in less at around 145 - 150k. Granted the S63 is longer, and more room in the rear passenger area which is another selling point.

StndIbnz, Drives a MSRT8 > CAR_IS_MI 01/28/2016 at 14:36

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This!

Also, did you happen to see what the powertrain warranty is on the GT350? I’ve heard it’s only something like 30k miles. Engine is nicknamed the paint shaker, because they had to have that flat plane crank. It will be curious to see how long they last.

CAR_IS_MI > AndyG_UK 01/28/2016 at 14:36

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Yeah, we cant order dealer direct here which allows the dealers to gouge.

CAR_IS_MI > StndIbnz, Drives a MSRT8 01/28/2016 at 14:42

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This is one of my concerns with the engine, Ford’s first production flat plane, several issues they have are; 1) they did not have the space to run dual intake manifolds as is standard on flat plane 2) they did not have space to run equal length exhaust headers as is standard on flat plane 3) 1 & 2 caused them to have to add weight to the crank, which weighs 50lbs. For comparison the average Ferrari flat plane crank weights 35 lbs, and the cross plane crank on the 5.0 coyote weighs 55lbs. 4) I have yet to find out what materials Ford used for the crank, con rods, and pistons. Part of what allows Ferrari to squeeze so much power out of their engines is that they use strong materials which cost $$$, adding to the overall cost of the vehicle. Ford is selling this car which is a limited production run and will only be on the market for 2 years starting just under 50K... That tells me the materials might not be top grade.

PushToStart > CAR_IS_MI 01/28/2016 at 14:43

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Hmm, yeah I guess that is a fair point. Something else I just thought of is how all those accessories would require a bit of extra power to use, which in a Tesla obviously reduces the mileage you could do on one charge. Obviously the use of the features would be to the discretion of the owner/driver, but maybe Tesla figures for that reason it wouldn’t be worth adding?

CAR_IS_MI > they-will-know-my-velocity 01/28/2016 at 14:43

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It’s a 2 year run.

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > CAR_IS_MI 01/28/2016 at 15:03

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The crank configuration and firing order are different between the GT350's V8 and a Ferrari V8.

Ford flat plane crank: v ^ v ^ (firing order: four Harley or Ducati V-twins)

Ferrari flat plane crank: v ^ ^ v (firing order: two Honda Civics)

That doesn’t tell me whether the Ford design will be reliable, but it does tell me that it’s hard to directly compare them in terms of material stress and exhaust scavenging.

B_dol > CAR_IS_MI 01/28/2016 at 15:12

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Coworker bought his 350 in Oklahoma for exactly these reasons. Where there is will there is a way! Its a brilliant car, but the interior screams cheap and ugly to me still. Turn the key and you’ll get over all that.

DPD > CAR_IS_MI 01/28/2016 at 15:26

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Forget the Mustang. Get the Challenger Hellcat. Much better car, plus king of all Muscle Cars

StndIbnz, Drives a MSRT8 > CAR_IS_MI 01/28/2016 at 15:38

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I dont think they needed the intake or exhaust as you say. I thought the same thing about the exhaust when I saw it at the auto show, but because of the firing order they can get away with their design. It ends up working like equal lengths, without actually being them.

I’ve heard the crank damper has to be huge. It will be curious to see how long the engines last in real world.

Sam > CAR_IS_MI 01/28/2016 at 16:25

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In this case, Home Depot and Lowe’s would be selling them for $15 per 2x4. Because they are “adjusting for the current market”.

CAR_IS_MI > StndIbnz, Drives a MSRT8 01/28/2016 at 17:40

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Right, but they had to change the firing order because they could not fit equal lengths and dual intakes, which resulted in having to add weight to the crank.

CAR_IS_MI > DPD 01/28/2016 at 17:41

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I’ve driven a few challengers, while the hellcat is cool and all, the challengers overall just drive like they are 400 ft long and feel bulky IMO

CAR_IS_MI > Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever 01/28/2016 at 17:44

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Right, but Ford had to do this because they could not fit the dual intake and equal length headers like Ferrari. Which again, ultimately resulted in a 50lbs flat plane crank.

Nauraushaun > CAR_IS_MI 01/28/2016 at 18:10

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I think the problem is rich people. So the dealers take a 50k car and mark it up 50k, turning away all the guys who would normally have bought it. But there are still a bunch of rich guys who:

1. Want it

2. Have more than 100k to spend on a car

And they don’t even care. So they get it, the dealerships win, end of story.

StndIbnz, Drives a MSRT8 > CAR_IS_MI 01/29/2016 at 08:32

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Makes sense. I want to see the powertrain warranty on it still. How confident are they in that engine?

DPD > CAR_IS_MI 01/29/2016 at 08:58

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Yes they feel big and bulky, but I think that is the point. I’m a tall guy (over 6 foot) and I love my challenger because it is so big. That is one thing I do not like about my brother in law’s Mustang. It feels too small. Like im going to be crushed by an SUV if I get in an accident. It also has too much of a sporty feel. It is suppose to be a muscle car and muscle cars are suppose to be/feel big, heavy, and powerful. Dodge kept with tradition while the other two are moving away from that. And I think that is why the challenger is such a huge hit with enthusiasts (at least the older ones)

Vicente Esteve > green_man_group 01/29/2016 at 12:00

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We get the GT350 in Mexico. Local dealership just got 2.

NYankee1927 > StndIbnz, Drives a MSRT8 01/30/2016 at 00:35

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A guy at work just got one and I got a ride. I can def say from the interior and features Ford spent all the money on the drivetrain. Hopefully it was enough. But boy the flat plane sounds glorious!

green_man_group > Vicente Esteve 01/31/2016 at 20:38

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Nice!

Arrivederci > CAR_IS_MI 02/04/2016 at 15:18

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There are a few on eBay with lesser markups. Each one that had a “Best Offer” function, I sent an offer of MSRP.